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Amendment request: Article titles and capitalisation[edit]

Initiated by HouseBlaster at 02:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Article titles and capitalisation arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. § Contentious topic designation


List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request


Information about amendment request
  • Split into two separate CTOP designations


Statement by HouseBlaster[edit]

The Manual of Style and Article title policy are jointly authorized contentious topics. Speaking for myself, I have {{Contentious topics/aware|mos}} on my talk page, because I was (and am) aware that the MOS is a CTOP. I was unaware until earlier today that article titles are also a CTOP bundled with the MOS CTOP, even though I was technically aware of the article title CTOP.

It seems that others are also unaware (in the conventional sense) that article titles are CTOPICs; at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Persistent WP:IDONTLIKEIT behavior in WP:NCROY discussions it was about three days and 26KB of discussion before Guerrillero pointed out that article titles are already designated as a CTOP.

The MOS and article titles are related, but distinct, issues. I think they should be split into seperate CTOPs to reflect the fact that they are distinct issues. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 02:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding giv[ing] administrators an awful lot of discretion, I think that is the point of CTOPs: they give a lot of discretion to admins in areas that have historically been problematic. If admins abuse that discretion, that is a separate problem. We already have at least one CTOP (infoboxes) which covers particular discussions about an article rather than the article itself. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 15:21, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding Barkeep's comment, I should have been aware (in the conventional sense) that I was indicating AWAREness of article titles. That was completely my mistake. However, I still find it strange that this is a double-topic CTOP, and it is weird that I have to notify people who have never interacted with the MOS about its designation as a CTOP because they are involved in a dispute concerning article titles (or vice versa). HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 15:27, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Extraordinary Writ[edit]

Splitting the remedy is probably more trouble than it's worth. But while we're here: there hasn't been a logged sanction under this case since 2020, and that's probably because its scope is so narrow that most title- or MOS-related disruption isn't covered. Honestly there's a strong argument for just repealing it altogether, although the timing may not be right for that. An alternative would be to expand it to include RMs and the like (certainly there have been plenty of issues there), but that would give administrators an awful lot of discretion. The status quo of having the CTOP cover just the policy/guideline pages (which are often less contentious than the RMs) doesn't really make sense to me, though, and the lack of use suggests it's not doing much of value. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 03:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SarekOfVulcan[edit]

I would oppose splitting them, because the application of the MOS guidelines to the article titles policy was a large part of the controversy that caused me to file the case in the first place. See also Comet Hale–Bopp. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}[edit]

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Article titles and capitalisation: Clerk notes[edit]

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Article titles and capitalisation: Arbitrator views and discussion[edit]

  • FWIW, I'm not actually sure that the sanction from 2020 qualified under the scope of these sanctions. I would ping the admin who placed them but that admin is me (I thought they did at the time but have since come to doubt that). That said I've resisted including these when we've proposed areas to rescind because I know controversey remains. So where that leaves us here, I'm not sure, other than I wouldn't want to split them. In terms of not understanding their scope, the awareness template mentions Manual of Style and Article Topics so I think understanding that scope matters for the person saying their aware? Barkeep49 (talk) 14:44, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with Extraordinary Writ that splitting this CTOP is more trouble than it is worth. I would be willing to rescind the CTOP for article titles, as MOS pretty much covers the same territory. If there is still controversy in this area as Barkeep suggests, then it seems like the CTOP is not addressing the concerns if it is not being used. Z1720 (talk) 18:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • If it's an issue of the wording of the CTOP being ambiguous then that should be clarified, but the MoS and the Wikipedia:Article titles policy both are similar enough that I don't think they need to be split. If there's evidence that the scope isn't working that should be addressed by expanding or narrowing it. - Aoidh (talk) 03:58, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with what Aoidh has said-- I understand why this was filed and the rationale for splitting them, but I think it might overcomplicate things. I think this is a useful CT regime to have otherwise, but I'm open to amending it if there's evidence of issues with the application/scope. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 03:36, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm generally fine with the existence of WP:CT/MOS and no change appears to be happening, so I think this should be closed without action for now. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 23:34, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would also support closing this without action, I think the comments above from my colleagues cover everything. firefly ( t · c ) 15:39, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification request: Extended confirmed restriction[edit]

There is a consensus among active arbitrators that the close of the conduct discussion was correct given that the initator did not have extended confirmed and the discussion fell with-in an extended confirmed restriction topic area. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Initiated by Ivanvector at 13:20, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
WP:ARBECR

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Statement by Ivanvector[edit]

This request concerns the extended confirmed restriction and its applicability to complaints about user conduct within an affected topic.

A few days ago, editor BugGhost initiated a complaint at ANI regarding editor PicturePerfect666's conduct in discussions at Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2024 (ANI permalink). The complaint was entirely focused on PicturePerfect666's allegedly tendentious conduct with regard to information critical of Israel's participation in the song contest, reflective of real-world criticism and activism regarding Israel's ongoing invasion of Palestine. BugGhost specifically asked that PicturePerfect666 be topic banned. Since BugGhost is not extendedconfirmed, and the complaint entirely concerns conduct within that topic, I advised that the complaint could not proceed, but made no comment on its merit.

My rationale for closing is that non-extendedconfirmed editors are not permitted to edit in topics where ARBECR has been imposed in good faith, other than talk page edit requests, therefore (in my view) since a conduct complaint is not an edit request, it is not permitted for non-extendedconfirmed editors to file them regarding conduct within the topic, nor to comment on them. On this I would like clarification, because I agree with some implicit criticism on my talk page that it is unreasonable.

I have listed Valereee as a party because she added the contentious topics notice to the talk page on 28 December 2023 (diff), but she is not involved at all in the incidents described. PicturePerfect666 and BugGhost should be self-explanatory, and Yoyo360 is an extendedconfirmed editor who asked about "adopting" (my words) BugGhost's complaint.

-- Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:20, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sean.hoyland is referring to an earlier ANI filing which is also related to this same situation. An administrator not named here removed one comment by a non-EC editor from the Eurovision talk page. Seeing this, PicturePerfect666 then took it upon themselves to remove other comments from non-EC editors; Yoyo360 objected to one of their comments being removed, and that led PicturePerfect666 to file the complaint that Sean.hoyland is referring to. At the time that I reviewed that ANI complaint, Yoyo360 had 491 edits on this wiki (and as I mentioned, roughly 25,000 on French Wikipedia) and there were no other issues with their edits besides technically violating ARBECR, so it seemed to me that a reasonable way to resolve the complaint was to grant the clearly experienced editor EC "early". Had I not done so they would have been automatically granted EC by the software with 9 more edits, which they achieved later that day anyway. I don't think that this is relevant to the clarification request. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:16, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
BugGhost is very clearly a new user interested in contributing to Wikipedia in good faith, even if we don't assume they are (which is still a policy by the way). We told them that they can't edit the topic they're interested in (a music competition, of all things) until they have 500 edits. They accepted that and went off to find something else to do, and now we're saying "oh, those 500 edits aren't the right kind of edits, do 500 more". And their response to that is still not complaining, they're just asking what they can do better. Well, what is it, then? Or are we just going to let them flail about the project for a while until they ask again and we still say no? How many more edits are we going to demand before we accept that they're here to contribute? How long before their already exemplary patience runs out, and they decide Wikipedia isn't worth the effort? What is the point of this exercise if it's not moving the goalposts just so that a genuinely interested new user can't participate? And for what? ECR is meant to prevent disruption, just like all of our enforcement mechanisms; our rules are not meant to be enforced just because they exist, and no rule should exist in the first place if it's only used to gatekeep portions of the encyclopedia to users we individually approve. This policing of new users' edits isn't teaching anyone anything other than that Wikipedia hates new users, and it's doing far more harm to the project than any newbie with a spellchecker has ever done nor will do.
@Bugghost: I am sorry for my role in this pointless focus on your edit count overshadowing your genuine complaint about an (allegedly) properly disruptive user. You're not the problem here. The Wikipedia that I've given nearly 15 years to is better than this, and it will be there waiting for you on the other side. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:39, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Valereee[edit]

Statement by PicturePerfect666[edit]

Statement by Bugghost[edit]

As the newbie here that this request is concerning, I'm not completely certain what kind of comment is expected of me here, so I apologise if anything I say is irrelevant or out of scope.

Before writing the AN/I, I looked at the ARBECR guidelines and didn't see any wording that said that my filing was against the spirit of it. My interpretation was that AN/I wasn't a page related to any specific contentious topic, and the filing I was making was about a specific user's conduct, not about the contentious topic itself, and so it wasn't against the spirit of the restriction. I still stand by that - I made sure that my filing did not in any way weigh in on arguments of the related contentious topic at hand, just the behaviour of the user as shown by their edits. My filing was neutral on the contentious topic itself, without editorialising and without any discussion of assumed motive behind the behaviour - only their edits were brought forward.

A consequence from this closure is that raising an AN/I about someone who is being disruptive on a contentious issue is harder than raising an AN/I about someone who is being disruptive on a non-contentious issue. If PicturePerfect666's disruptive behaviour on the Eurovision page was instead about a different topic (say, the Dutch entrant's surprise disqualification), then an AN/I filing from myself would have gone ahead, because that part of the page is not under the ARBECR. But seeing as they were disruptive about a contentious issue, they have been able to deflect my concerns - which seems counter to the ARBECR's aims of reducing disruption on contentious topics.

I think that the ARBECR is a good idea but can be hard to interpret, and has the ability to dismiss reasonable well intentioned actions. In my view, it can contradict the "assume good faith" mantra, as assumption that I filed the AN/I accurately and in good faith was "trumped" by the fact my edit count being too low. As I said on IvanVector's talk page, I spent a long amount of time compiling a long list of the user's disruptive behaviour for the filing, including very specific diffs to outline each example, and it being dismissed based wholly on my edit count was very demoralising. As backed up by Yoyo360 suggestion to "adopt" it, the AN/I has some merits worth considering. BugGhost🎤 16:07, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RE: @Bishonen's gaming concerns - I have been doing typo fixing recently, but it's worth noting that I started doing this on the 24th of May (not on the 19th, the day I received the EC notification, as was suggested). After I received the EC notification, I simply stopped interacting with the Eurovision talk page, as was suggested by the admin that posted it, and focused on my editing priorities (mainly the WPF article, as @Novem Linguae mentioned in their comment - which is where I have spent the vast majority of my time as an editor, far more than Eurovision or typo-fixing).
I want to stress that I have been doing these typo changes as a real task and in good faith. It's true that before this I hadn't done any large-scale spelling based changes, but as a relatively new user, I have been doing a lot of "firsts" recently.
I wasn't doing these changes in secret - I added this mission to my userpage, added it to the adopt-a-typo page, have suggested a page with 'pre-determined' in the title to be moved, and gave advice to a new editor who was prone to typos. I was under the impression that this was a regular Wikipedia-editor task, based on the adopt-a-typo page, the wikignome page, and seeing other editors with repeated spell-checking edits in their user contribs.
I know how this will sound given the circumstances, but I actually stopped doing typo changes yesterday (when I was at roughly 450 edits) because I thought if I hit 500 while this situation was happening it would only complicate matters, and went back to slower-paced editing instead in order to not become extended confirmed. I also have no desperate need to hit 500, because PP666 has not been disruptive since the AN/I was filed, and it sounds like Yoyo360 would have "re-raised" my AN/I whether I became EC or not, and overall the Eurovision page is solving the disruption problems without any input from me. I started typo-fixing after the point "gaming the system" would have been useful to me.
Regarding whether "pre-determined" is a typo - I researched it to double check prior to fixing, and found multiple sources implying that it should be unhyphenated as one word [1] [2], and similarly for "pre-suppose", as the rule (as I understand), is that you hyphenate "pre-" only when the following word begins with an E or I sound, or if it's a new compound not itself in the dictionary (eg. "pre-dinner snack"). I do 100% understand Bishonen's concerns though, and seeing as there's questions about my motives, and whether it's even a typo, I won't resume these edits until I get some go-ahead that it's ok to do.
BugGhost🪲👻 15:34, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Yoyo360[edit]

I don't have much to add actually. I don't edit much on wiki:en, I'm mostly watching the talk pages of the Eurovision wikiproject to inspire me on the French-language counterpart (which is quasi inactive). I only come in when discussions have relevance for topics I also could add on wiki:fr and I noticed PP666 behaviour in the past weeks. I concur with everything BugGhost noted in their AN/I, they argued the case way better than I ever could. Noticing the topic had been closed due to the extended confirmed restrictions, I put myself forward to push the AN/I to be treated (as I now have the EC status on wiki:en) asking if it could be reopened in my name. I even have a few things to add to it but that's rather minor compared to the rest and off-topic here I think. Yoyo360 (talk) 15:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Selfstudier[edit]

My rationale for closing is that non-extendedconfirmed editors are not permitted to edit in topics where ARBECR has been imposed in good faith, other than talk page edit requests, therefore (in my view) since a conduct complaint is not an edit request, it is not permitted for non-extendedconfirmed editors to file them regarding conduct within the topic, nor to comment on them That is my experience, see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive356#Selfstudier "As a non-EC editor, you essentially have no standing to make edits related to the topic. You can make an edit request, but any other editor can remove it, even without providing reason. Further, making a complaint against another editor as a non-EC editor in the WP:ARBPIA area is fully not allowed."· So I would agree, it's only logical. Selfstudier (talk) 14:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sean.hoyland[edit]

I think the closing was entirely appropriate and I agree with Selfstudier's statement. However, I think it is fair to say that the situation with respect to Yoyo360 at the time of the complaint posted by PicturePerfect666 at ANI is more complicated than "Yoyo360 is an extendedconfirmed editor". They were granted the privilege early (from an enwiki perspective) because, as the log says, they are a "10-year-old user with over 25,000 edits across all projects". This seems reasonable, pragmatic and it resolved the issue (although I'm sure imaginative people could cite it as yet another example of anti-Israel bias or rewarding complainers etc.), but for me, it's another reminder that none of us really know (based on evidence) the best way to implement/enforce EC restrictions in ARBPIA, how strictly they should be implemented, and that there is a lot of (costly) subjectivity and fuzziness involved at the moment. This is by no means a criticism or an endorsement of anything that happened in that thread by the way. I have no idea how to figure out how EC rules should work in practice to produce the best result. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On gaming, as far as I can tell (in ARBPIA anyway), the notion of gaming to acquire the EC privilege only becomes useful after a person has become extendedconfirmed and you can see what they did with it. Statements about potential gaming before someone has reached 500 edits are usually not verifiable (e.g. unreliable inferences about intent) and not based on agreed methods to reliably distinguish between gaming edits and normal edits (probably because we can't really do that without the benefit of post-EC hindsight). It's true that gaming happens in ARBPIA and that the gaming vs non-gaming signals can sometimes be distinguished, e.g. here, where all of the plots that look like gaming, anonymized ARBPIA editors 2,5,6 and 7, are for editors blocked as sockpuppets. But regardless, I don't think there is much utility in raising gaming questions until after someone becomes extendedconfirmed and there is post-EC activity evidence to look at. To do so asks questions that can't be answered without a lot of handwaving fuzziness about revision size, necessity, constructiveness, gnoming-ness, character witness-like statements etc. AGF until there is a reason not to seems like the best approach to gnoming-like pre-EC edits. Sean.hoyland (talk) 07:33, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll add some quick responses to Ivanvector's kindness and frustration from a different perspective (as someone only active in ARBPIA nowadays, and not to make content edits).

  • "no rule should exist in the first place if it's only used to gatekeep portions of the encyclopedia to users we individually approve." - WP:SOCK could be considered to be an example of such a rule. Many of the "interested in contributing to Wikipedia"/collateral damage-type arguments used against ARBECR could also be used against SOCK if you only consider the edits and exclude value judgements of the person making the edits. But the SOCK rule is enforced pretty consistently even though it is often much harder to tell whether someone is a sock than whether they are extendedconfirmed or their action complies with ARBECR, and even though it is probably not possible to measure whether blocking socks has a net positive or net negative impact on content etc.
  • "it's doing far more harm to the project than..." This might be true, but I've not seen any evidence that anyone knows how to measure it. I have a more positive view, probably because I'm only active in ARBPIA where the costs of not having or not enforcing the rules are obvious. To me, the benefits seem to outweigh the costs, with the caveat that most of the harm is probably not visible. The rules also introduce new costs because, although 'edit request' points at WP:EDITXY, what constitutes an edit request is, in practice, in the eye of the beholder. This might be bad, or good. Hard to tell.
  • I think ToBeFree's view that "This may be unfair or unreasonable in individual cases without being a general problem" applies to the arbitration remedies for ARBPIA in general.
  • If there are better solutions, they could be proposed and tested. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:54, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Bishonen[edit]

After Bugghost was informed on May 19 about the EC restriction on Eurovision Song Contest 2024 and told they had "nowhere near 500 edits", they have started what looks like an attempt to game the 500 edits restriction by doing a lot of simple spelling corrections and are by this means now rapidly approaching the 500. In many cases the changes aren't even corrections — they changed the form pre-determined to predetermined in hundreds of articles yesterday, even though both forms are acceptable, and similarly changed lots of instances of pre-suppose to presuppose, where also both forms are acceptable. They made no spelling-"correction" edits before they were made aware of the EC rule for the Arab–Israeli conflict. I like to AGF, but this is ridiculous. See WP:GAME. Bishonen | tålk 10:40, 27 May 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Statement by Novem Linguae[edit]

Bugghost has been rewriting the article Windows Presentation Foundation over the last week or so. In my mind he is a talented newer editor that is doing good content creation and article cleanup work. In light of the gaming concerns above, I'd like to make sure the positive aspects of this editor are also considered. Thank you. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}[edit]

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Extended confirmed restriction: Clerk notes[edit]

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Extended confirmed restriction: Arbitrator views and discussion[edit]

  • One of the issues that led to ECR applying the way it does in this topic area were attempts by new accounts to weaponize our enforcement mechanisms. So while Eurovision 2024 as a whole does not, in my opinion, fall into ECR, edits relating to Israel's participation does as it is clearly WP:BROADLY construed in the topic area. As such non-ECR may not make enforcement requests There's also the past precedent of ArbCom granting ECR to people it was permitting to participate in an arbitraton process that would otherwise be ECR. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:52, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Beyond what others have stated, let's not lose eye on the ball here: if there is gaming (and I agree on the whole with the analysis that there is not) it's to edit a particular part of a Eurovision article and not say Israel–Hamas war. I'm not pretending that there is nothing contentious about Israel's participation in Eurovision 2024 but even with a contentious topic area there are differing levels of things. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:54, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The closure text at [3] appears to be correct. This may be unfair or unreasonable in individual cases without being a general problem to me. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with my colleagues above: The ECR restriction is to prevent weaponization. It is also to encourage new users to get experience with Wikipedia policies and processes before filing accusations. If someone with ECR wants to adopt it, that is their prerogative, but they will also take responsibility for the filing. I have no concerns with this Ivanvector's close at ANI. I agree that Eurovision 2024 as a whole is not under ARBECR, but topics about Israel/Palestine are. Bugghost I encourage you to return to editing at a quicker pace if you desire, as you obtaining the ECR user right while this is open will not concern me. Z1720 (talk) 16:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Concur with the views above; I would just add that as I see it I do entirely agree with Ivanvector's statement that BugGhost is very clearly a new user interested in contributing to Wikipedia in good faith. firefly ( t · c ) 18:43, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict) I also agree with my colleagues, and am concerned as Ivanvector is that participants here are moving the goalposts inappropriately. It was a policy-backed close of an otherwise good-faith report from an editor who is well-meaning but has not yet met the Extended Confirmed level of participation. Primefac (talk) 18:45, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The way the restriction is currently worded and the way it is handled in practice (for example granting EC so that editors can participate in case requests) is in line with how Ivanvector closed the AN/I report. The first sentence in the report establishes that PIA is a major factor of the AN/I report itself, falling within its scope. - Aoidh (talk) 19:17, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification request: mentioning the name of off-wiki threads[edit]

Initiated by Just Step Sideways at 22:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by Just Step Sideways[edit]

Two recent situations have revealed what appears to be some vagueness regarding when and if users should email private evidence to the committee, the utility of doing so when it concerns a curent on-wiki, but non-ArbCom discussion, and also if merely saying that a thread exists is not permitted.

(I seem to recall that there is a case somewhere where the committee discussed very similar issues, but I've been unable to locate it in the archives.)

  • In one case a user posted nothing more than the name of a very long thread at an off-wiki criticism site (they actually didn't even spell it the same as the actual thread title). It turned out that within this off-wiki thread, if one dug through it long enough, there was a link to a different thread where the very user who had made the on-wiki post was outed. This resulted in a very large number of diffs on a busy page being supressed, even though there was no direct link to any outing.
  • In an ongoing RFA, some users are opposing based on what could only be described as completely harmless posts on that same forum. The recent supression action would seem to indicate that even posting the name of the thread on-wiki would lead to further supression, which is obviously to be avoided. One of these users has stated that they contacted the committee before posting, but it is unclear what this was meant to accomplish or what the committee may or may not have said back to them, if anything.
  • I considered reproducing some or all of the RFA candidates posts on-wiki to demonstrate the point that they are comletely unproblematic unto themselves, but given the events described above I don't know if that would also lead to supression actions.

I feel like this has the potantial to create a chilling effect where users will be afraid to post anything at all on off-wiki criticism sites, no matter how innocuous their posts are the topic being discussed may be, and that even mentioning the name of a thread on such a site is now forbidden, which seems a bit extreme to me.

I understand and agree that directly posting a link on-wiki to a specific post that contains outing is a clear violation of the outing policy. It is less clear to me that posting merely the name of an extremely long thread with no actual link to the thread at all is a violation. I would therefore ask that the committee clarify where the line is.

I've deliberately not named the individuals involved in these incidents as this is matter of interpretation of policy, specifically Wikipedia:Oversight. I can email more detailed information if needed but I imagine it should be fairly easy for you all to determine what I'm referring to. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 22:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Barkeep, I'm not sure what I've got wrong, because I had to kind of piece together what actually happened as the material was supressed. I was pretty sure I'd got it right but guesswork is risky that way. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 23:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tryptofish[edit]

I think it would be very interesting to hear ArbCom opinions on this question. In part, this issue comes up in the context of the 2024 RfA reform discussions heading in the direction of wanting accusations of wrongdoing against RfA candidates to be backed up with specific evidence, and the question comes up of how to provide specific evidence when it cannot be posted onsite. Does ArbCom want editors to submit such evidence about RfA candidates to ArbCom, and if so, can ArbCom respond to the evidence in a way that is sufficiently timely to be useful for RfA? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:56, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Floq[edit]

I have lots of thoughts, but they boil down to: we will not link to (or obliquely mention) any thread with outing/doxxing; consider whether it is accessible to the public so it can be verified; and consider whether the WP user has linked themselves to the off-wiki account. If any of the 3 tests fail, then you can't bring it up at RFA (or anywhere else at WP). Sorry, the world is imperfect. Based on this, you would very often be able to discuss a Discord discussion, and very often not be able to discuss a WO discussion, but with exceptions in both cases. It seems like further details on this aren't useful until and unless I become God Emperor of WP, and can just implement it, but I can expand if someone wants. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:28, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Vanamonde[edit]

I see this as a matter for the community, rather than ARBCOM. To me the heart of the matter is if, and how, we can discuss Wikipedia editors' off-wiki activities. ARBCOM has a role to play when off-wiki conduct impinges on on-wiki matters enough; typically, for harassment, collusion, or other disruption of our core purpose. The off-wiki conduct that has become a matter of discussion at RFA is very different: it isn't a violation of any of our PAGs, it is just behavior some editors find objectionable in an RFA candidate. We treat the off-wiki lives of our editors as private, and rightfully so. Discord and WPO are weird, in that they are strictly off-wiki fora populated by a large number of Wikipedians in good standing. I don't think it's an unreasonable position to take that behavior there shouldn't be immune to on-wiki scrutiny if it becomes relevant to on-wiki matters; I also don't think it's unreasonable to say that what happens off-wiki should stay there until and unless our PAGs are being violated, and then it needs to go to ARBCOM. But that's an area in which current policy seems to not cover all the contingencies, and the community needs to grapple with that. I don't see how a comment like this is useful to send to ARBCOM, or what ARBCOM could do if it was; but we're clearly unsettled as a community that it was posted, and we need to figure out guidelines for it. Vanamonde93 (talk) 01:23, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Joe Roe[edit]

I agree that some clarification from the committee on these matters would be helpful. This isn't entirely up to them—for example, the ban on discussing Discord discussions is the result of a community RfC and it would be inappropriate to modify it either way here—but ArbCom has historically played a role in making editors feel generally uncomfortable about linking to things off-wiki. More specifically, a 2007 remedy pronouncing that quoting private correspondence is a copyright violation is still on the books and still cited in WP:EMAILPOST. Does the current committee agree with this interpretation?

In addition, ArbCom has a responsibility to regulate the oversight team, and I've had a feeling for a long time now that they been enforce an extremely broad understanding of what constitutes "outing" that is not necessarily reflective of broader community opinion. Some direction there could also be very helpful: OS is used as "tool of first resort", or so the mantra goes, but we shouldn't underestimate how chilling it is to have an edit suppressed. – Joe (talk) 08:47, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Aoidh makes a good point below about current policy (WP:OUTING) requiring disclosure of personal information on Wikipedia before it can be discussed. There are two pivot points there: where the disclosure should happen, but also whether profiles on external sites, and by extension posts associated with those profiles, can reasonably be considered "personal information". For me it's the latter that is the problem here; the former is a good rule when applied to genuine personal information. Interestingly, it's also a relatively recent addition to the harassment policy,[4][5] following this discussion in December 2020. The reason given for the addition was to bring the policy in line with the practice of oversighters, which rather speaks to my point of the OS team pushing things in a more conservative direction, not necessarily the community as a whole. – Joe (talk) 06:36, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ferret[edit]

I'd like an opinion on this as well, not necessarily just for RFA. Specific to WP:Discord, I !voted in the Discord RFC to restrict copying and linking Discord messages. I did so based on my reading of OUTING, HARASSMENT, and the community expectations of IRC logs, rather than strictly what I'd prefer. That consideration included what Joe references about the copyright concern of "private" messages, which seems to be part of the long standing rationale around IRC messages. I've also seen several times people suggest that OUTING goes as far as covering someone outing themselves on another Wikimedia project (i.e. a user page on eswiki), meaning that's not good enough to mention here on English Wikipedia. Prior to SUL, that may well have been, but SUL is long done. So what I'm really driving at is: Where is the line on identifying yourself sufficiently to be mentioned on site? Particular to the Discord, we have OAuth integration through an open source bot hosted on WMF resources. Is this enough to count as self-disclosure? Or does the connection to Discord have to be on-site (i.e. a userbox or otherwise)? Revisiting the Discord RFC is on the community, but some of these questions, such as EMAILPOST and how OS will act, are at least partially under Arbcom as Joe notes. -- ferret (talk) 13:43, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep49 Thanks. I have heard this said (Re: disclosure on other Wikimedia projects) repeatedly, but I did not know where it might actually be stated. -- ferret (talk) 19:09, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Thryduulf[edit]

Regarding Ferret's comments regarding disclosures on other SUL wikis. I have a vague recollection that this was discussed previously, but I don't remember where. I don't think a single hard and fast rule can be applied to that, but it's a matter of how reasonable it is to expect en.wp editors to be aware of the disclosure. For example if you make a disclosure on another wiki and you prominently link to that page from your userpage here, that should count as disclosing it here. If you disclose something on your e.g. eswiki userpage and make it clear on your userpage here that you contribute to eswiki, then again it's reasonable to take that as having been disclosed to the English Wikipedia. However, if you state something on the e.g. Russian wikisource's equivalent of Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, and don't link to that page here, then it has not been disclosed to the English Wikipedia. Obviously there will be many things in between the extremes that can only be decided on a case-by-case basis. However, unless you are sure it has been intentionally or obviously disclosed somewhere it is reasonable to expect English Wikipedia editors to be aware of, then assume it has not been disclosed. Thryduulf (talk) 18:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep49 so basically what I said just more clearly and a lot more concisely! Thryduulf (talk) 19:05, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Joe Roe: there are two issues with connecting accounts elsewhere. The first is ensuring that connections are actually correct, i.e. User X here is the same person as user X elsewhere - even sharing relatively unusual names like Thryduulf is not a guarantee (I remember finding a user Thryduulf that was nothing to do with me a few years ago, user:Thrydwulf is nothing to do with me). The second issue is that editors have a reasonable expectation of privacy and are allowed to choose to disclose things in other communities that they do not want to disclose here. Thryduulf (talk) 09:44, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by hako[edit]

I think the community wants to have pretty firm protections against doxxing I'd like the committee to make an explicit distinction between persons involved in the act of doxxing (or say vote canvassing or any other misconduct) on third-party sites, and persons who participate on those sites but are not abettors. It's futile to overreach and police what editors do and say outside wikipedia. Hypothetically speaking, I can say whatever I want on any third party site with a fictitious name, without any possibility of repercussion on my activity on wikipedia. Arbcom should act exclusively on cases where they find evidence of misconduct by an editor off-wiki without attaching any vicarious liability to other participants on that off-wiki platform. — hako9 (talk) 19:40, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}[edit]

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

mentioning the name of off-wiki threads: Clerk notes[edit]

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

mentioning the name of off-wiki threads: Arbitrator views and discussion[edit]

  • Thanks for raising this issue JSS. As the OS who did the noticeboard suppression which named a thread, your facts aren't quite right there, but I don't think that takes away from the larger point you're raising. And it's one I admit to some discomfort with in an RfA context. As it stands I think the community wants to have pretty firm protections against doxxing. I also think the community would care about certain off-wiki activities. For instance, if User:Foo had lost Stewardship due to abuse on Miraheze/WikiTide there would be no cause for any action here, but I think the community would want to consider that information before passing someone at RfA. So don't have any answers (yet) but wanted to acknowledge some thoughts I had as I wait to see what other editors and arbs say. Barkeep49 (talk) 23:03, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Thryduulf the wording about other projects is found in note 1 of the harassment policy. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:58, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I want to take more time to look into this so I can make a more informed opinion, but wanted to note that I am paying close attention to this and appreciate the statements given so far. I think it's important to note that the current wording of WP:OUTING requires self-disclosure on Wikipedia in order for the disclosure of off-wiki profiles to not constitute outing, and I think it's important to view these issues through that lens unless and until that policy is amended. - Aoidh (talk) 22:32, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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